Found out why the engine is seized.....

[Confederate1969]

I removed the rockers, push rods, and lifters last night. Only one lifter was stubborn and didn't slide out easily through the top so I left it for when I take the cam out. I took the heads off today. I didn't expect a gallon of water to come pouring out when the seal between the heads and deck came loose. :toetap: So I took a quick look at the pistons and cylinder walls and decided the next step in my process was a good headbashing session. :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: Looks like there has been some nasty buildup and rust in the cylinders over the last quarter century. I'm quite unimpressed with this as it looks like it may cost me a lot of money to turn this mess into a working engine.

 

[dobie]

Wow.

 

[Big John]

OK... Don't panic.

First, we need to figure out where the water came from and was it water or antifreeze?

Did you drain the block (drain plugs on side of block) before you took the heads off?

 

[Basketcase]

I was expecting to see the Titanic kinda rust. but for a 40 year old engine, it doesn't look all that bad. LIke Big said, don't panic. Just welcome to the
Wide Wide Wonderful world of old Cars. Expect the unexpected, and you will usually get it.
I take it the pistons are stuck. so start hitting them with a generous dose of PB Blaster. shouldn't be that much to free up the pistons. After you pull the crank, you can hork on getting the pistons moving back and forth.

 

[Plymouthfan]

I though it'd be a lot worse to be honest.

Don't be freaked out! Just remember it's the heart of the car and everything will revolve around it. If you spend any money on this project right now, spend it on the engine, the bay and and the trans, the rest can come later. It takes YEARS to get these cars even close to being right unless you have deep pockets or a ton of parts laying around.

You'll get there!

 

[John69RR]

I too was expecting it to look a lot worse. Have you tried to rotate the crank since pulling the heads? Like Basketcase said, get some PB Blaster and spray the bores trying to get as much as possible around the piston. Let it soak in then try and rotate the crank. Spray some more and try again. If it still won't budge then you will need to pull the rod caps and rear main oil seal cap and remove the crank. Not being able to rotate it will complicate the rod cap removal but with time and patience you will get it apart.

 

[Confederate1969]

I didn't drain the block before I took off the heads. As for whether it was water or anti-freeze, it was definitely anti-freeze being green and stinking up the garage in short order. But I feel like a dope for forgetting to do it as I had read about having to do it a bunch of times in preparation.... :brickwall: :leave: Having said that, the pistons have obviously been in contact with the water/antifreeze mixture or some sort of condensation at some point anyway. The pistons are "melded" or stuck to the cylinder walls or however one would call it and there are hints of rust on the bore walls. It's rather disgusting and disappointing to look at. I did try turning the crank and it won't budge in the slightest bit. I have a family size can of PB blaster, so I will be applying it generously to the pistons in the next few days.

Thanks for the suggestions on how to deal with this, fellahs. I'm gonna get right on this.

 

[dobie]

Every day, just keep soaking the pistons down with PB Blaster every time you walk past it.

 

[ACME A12]

I've had a couple of these "exposed to the elements for too long" engines that ultimately required me to destroy the pistons to salvage the crank, rods, & block. Hopefully this old girl will get "unstuck" as I know you were hoping to re-use the pistons. Cylinder wall wear & taper will of course ultimately decide this for you, but hang in there, it'll all work itself out...


Ray

 

[69hemibeep]

Yep what they said. The rings rust to the walls and the rest are deposits that fill in. Keep soaking them get a block of wood and a 'Ford' hammer, its just a big hammer the only tool you need for those things and drive em out the top

 

[Big John]

I've taken engines apart that had been sitting outside with the heads off. Its not fun, but it can be done.

The thing to remember is the pistons are already junk. You can save the block and the rods pretty easily.

As everyone has said, soak the pistons with PB Blaster and keep soaking them. If you can get the engine to turn, it will be much easier to get apart.

 

[Confederate1969]

By tapping the pistons out, how badly will I be scraping or damaging the cylinder walls? And since there is some rust on the walls, does this guarantee that I will need to have it bored out even if the tapers and wear were minimal? From what I can tell just with the naked eye, it looks like the original owner of my RR drove the daylights out of it. The ridge at TDC is considerable visibly and by the touch. I'll post plenty of pics of the bottom side stuff as soon as I get the crank to turn.

While we are on the topic of pistons.......... let's say I go ahead and do a typical .030 bore. How much am I looking at spending for pistons? For those of you who have replaced pistons or who have known others who have done so, I am looking for advice on where to go to buy them. Also, would I get something like this newer aluminum type stuff or should I stay with the oldschool iron stuff? If I buy new pistons, can I / should I reuse my rods or should these be replaced with the pistons the way you replace the valve train when you get a new cam?

 

[Big John]

You won't damage the cylinder walls as long as you are careful.

The rods can be reused, although having the rods reconditioned isn't a bad idea. New piston pins will come with the new pistons.

Pistons come in two varieties, cast aluminum and forged aluminum. Forged is stronger and more expensive and pretty much not necessary for what you are doing. The original pistons were cast.

IMHO, going with something like the Sealed Power (or whatever) stock replacement will be the best bang for the buck. The replacement piston will be the same weight as the original.. that will save you from having the rotating assembly rebalanced. That will save you some $$.

Piston cost? Geez... Nothings cheap anymore. $60 a piece or so.

 

[John69RR]

KB hypereurtectic pistons will work also. Price is OK.
Here is a link to their website.
http://kb-silvolite.com/downloads/NEW_C ... G_2008.pdf
Scroll down to the GREEN pages. That is the hypereutectic ones.
First thing though is to get the old ones out and get it to a machine shop and have them check the bore.

 

[69hemibeep]

John69rr is right. A buddy of mine runs KB pistons in a stroked chevy with twin turbos at a boost of 18 and breaks everything but the pistons. I got a set for my AMC for about 500 bucks. I use summit to order. Also check online for an engine kit, you can get a good deal for a complete rebuild including pistons after you determine the bore. They also come with cam options

 

[69hemibeep]

I looked at a company I have used online in the past Performance Automotive Warehouse. They have a kit for 530.00 that includes Cast pistons and pins, rings, rod and main bearings, a stock or performance cam. They have alot of cams including Mopar some at an extra charge. Gaskets are seperate. Of coarse you have to see what everything will machine to before you can order anything. Shop around!

 

[mcmopar]

Just be aware that most of those kits which include the pistons use pistons that will only provide about 8:1 compression. You'll want 9.3:1 compression at the most for the junk they are calling gasoline these days. Some kits have a compression rating of 8.8:1 or so but don't trust them. You'll probably see the pistons down in the hole about .080". You'll want them to be up at about .020" or so but you'll need to do the necessary calculations to get it right (combustion chamber volume in the heads, bore diameter and so on). I have a good friend who can help with that.
Remember, when ordering pistons make sure to get them from a reputable supplier and call their tech help line to talk with a rep who can help you get the right ones. A little research now will go a long way to making sure the engine setup is optimal.