Ignition Problem ?

[RoadRunner1969]

I have a problem !

My 1969 Road Runner engine stoped Runnin !

I started the engine as always. The engine sound was nice as always. After a minute or so it was like somebody turned the key.
Engine off without warning - no chance to get it started again !

Yesterday I checked a few things. Sparkplugs are all wet but there is spark on all eight plugs.

I do have an electronic ignition with a Accel Racing coil ACC-140305 and the Orange box. Never had any problem with that setup for years !

I changed nothing.

Maybe it is the orange box or the ignition coil !? If it would be the ignition coil there shouldn´t be a spark at the plugs ? but there is spark !

I put new plugs in and tried it again....starter was working, fuel was in the carb...it tried to start but it wasn´t.

Any ideas ???

I checked the internet for getting a new Accel Racing coil ACC-140305 but couldn´t find any shop selling it ! Is there a similar coil which I can use without changeing anything else on the system ? Does anybody know a shop who sells this coil: ACC-140305 ?

 

[Basketcase]

sounds like the electronic ignition box. make sure it has a good ground. swap it with a known good box.

 

[ACME A12]

I Yesterday I checked a few things. Sparkplugs are all wet but there is spark on all eight plugs.

Okay, so do you or do you not have spark at the plugs? If you do, then why do suspect that the ECU or the coil has gone bad? Is it present but weak?

In my experience when the ECU takes a dump there is NO SPARK.

 

[dobie]

I had something similar a few years ago. Car would be fine, then shut off for no apparent reason. It would take awhile to restart too. It ended up being the pickup coil inside the distributor. Once I replaced that, the issues went away. Might not be your problem, but its another place to look.

 

[mcmopar]

If I were a betting man I'd bet its the Orange Box. The same thing happened to me a few years back. I changed out the Orange Box for a Borg Warner unit and have been trouble free since. The Orange Box was notorious for failure a few years back.

Dobie has a good point also. You could pop the distributor cap and check the clearance between the reluctor and the pickup. If the gap is closed you won't get the car started.

 

[RoadRunner1969]

Thank you for the answers ! :cheers:

@ACME A12: I do have a spark so I don´t think it´s the coil but couldn´t there be a spark from a bad orange box at the wrong time ?



I ordered a new orange box (it´s the only box I can get here in Germany in just one day) and HOPE THAT THIS IS MY PROBLEM !!!

Hope there is no fuel in my oil because I tried many times to get the car started! Heard that this could happen !
Maybe I should blow out the fuel from the spark plug holes before I try it again....

I also will check my distributor !

 

[sixgunrunner68]

Hope there is no fuel in my oil because I tried many times to get the car started! Heard that this could happen !

Or in your mufflers, Ask Bob about that.. :jester:

 

[69hemibeep]

Hope there is no fuel in my oil because I tried many times to get the car started! Heard that this could happen !

Or in your mufflers, Ask Bob about that.. :jester:

BOOM

 

[A31PKG]

...it tried to start but it wasn´t. Any ideas ????

You say "it tried to start"... this tells me that spark is probably not the issue... Yes, weak spark can cause lots of things, like hard starting, hesitation, low power, etc... but the sudden death that you described, doesn't quite fit a weak spark senario in my view. Yes, the "box" could be the cause, but I would check a couple of other things. First, is it possible that the timing chain jumped? Second, the excessive fuel you mentioned may be due to a carb/float issue... It may have simply flooded on you. If it is flooded, your idea to blow out the cylinders with compressed air is a good one... Just be sure the floats aren't stuck. Keep us posted!

 

[sixgunrunner68]

...it tried to start but it wasn´t. Any ideas ????

You say "it tried to start"... this tells me that spark is probably not the issue... Yes, weak spark can cause lots of things, like hard starting, hesitation, low power, etc... but the sudden death that you described, doesn't quite fit a weak spark senario in my view. Yes, the "box" could be the cause, but I would check a couple of other things. First, is it possible that the timing chain jumped? Second, the excessive fuel you mentioned may be due to a carb/float issue... It may have simply flooded on you. If it is flooded, your idea to blow out the cylinders with compressed air is a good one... Just be sure the floats aren't stuck. Keep us posted!

Good call. I was thinking the floats myself, but the way he said it just died like someone turned the key off left me guessing. I think he'd be smoking and missing until it just stumbled to dead. I can't see it running fine with a stuck float. Definitely worth checking though.

 

[RoadRunner1969]

@ 69hemibeep: Hope there is no BOOM on my car !!!!

How do I get fuel out of the mufflers ???


@ A31PKG: Do you think the timing chain could jump at idle after a minute? How could that happen ? And if so how can I check and fix that ?


@ sixgunrunner68: a carb/float issue was the the first thing I thought about, but the engine was running as alway, no signs of "smoking and missing until it just stumbled to dead". It was exactly like a turn off the key ! No noises at all !

Tomorrow I recieve the new orangebox and I really hope that this is my problem and not a timing chain jump !!!!!!! :crazy:

 

[ACME A12]

@ACME A12: I do have a spark so I don´t think it´s the coil but couldn´t there be a spark from a bad orange box at the wrong time ?

The ECU is just an amplifier. The reluctor and the pickup coil determine at which point spark is produced.

 

[ACME A12]

...it tried to start but it wasn´t. Any ideas ????

You say "it tried to start"... this tells me that spark is probably not the issue... Yes, weak spark can cause lots of things, like hard starting, hesitation, low power, etc... but the sudden death that you described, doesn't quite fit a weak spark senario in my view. Yes, the "box" could be the cause, but I would check a couple of other things. First, is it possible that the timing chain jumped? Second, the excessive fuel you mentioned may be due to a carb/float issue... It may have simply flooded on you. If it is flooded, your idea to blow out the cylinders with compressed air is a good one... Just be sure the floats aren't stuck. Keep us posted!

Good call. I was thinking the floats myself, but the way he said it just died like someone turned the key off left me guessing. I think he'd be smoking and missing until it just stumbled to dead. I can't see it running fine with a stuck float. Definitely worth checking though.

I was thinking along these lines also...which is why I wanted clarification on whether or not there was spark. The plugs being wet certainly seems to be a vital clue here. If it was just flooded you should be able to dry her out and get her refired. If not, then you need to look for the reason for the excessive fuel. If that all checks out then you need to investigate the camshaft/crankshaft (jumped timing) relationship. Have you ever replaced the timing chain?

 

[RoadRunner1969]

I thought the plugs are wet because I´ve tried to get the engine re-started several times.

The engine was completely rebuilt 14 years ago (but only 10.000 miles on it since the rebuilt) !

Never had a problem with getting the engine started or during driving....
All Plugs looked very nice before that happened !

could the timing chain jump at idle without any reason/noise/.....???
Most things on the engine are "like new".

 

[69hemibeep]

The gas is probably gone unless your out there cranking and pumping the throttle daily. But if you do have a float problem check your oil.

 

[A31PKG]

Yes a chain can jump at idle... in fact, I've seen it occur more often at idle than at cruise believe it or not! If the engine was rebuilt, then one can only assume that the chain was replaced. If the engine abruptly shut off, AND you have comfirmed a spark, then my thought process leads me to believe a mechanical issue... I personally have never used an "orange box" ignition system. I prefer good ol' reliable points or Pertronix unit. Nonetheless (and as previously stated), it is my understanding that the box simply grounds the negative side of the coil when prompted by the voltage pulse generated by the magnetic pick up in the distributor. It should have no bearing on ignition timing, as that is controlled solely by the distributor weights, springs, & vacuum advance. Question: Prior to shut off, was the engine smoking or loading up? If not, then maybe excessive float level is not the culprit....unless they were stuck down and the car ran out of gas? Subsequent attempts to re-start (pumping the accelerator) may have resulted in the fuel you mention as the floats could have "broke free"? Maybe an internal distributor failure? Bad ignition switch? Puzzling situation. Very hard to diagnose online, but good luck with it!

 

[A31PKG]

One other thing, How does the engine sound compression-wise when cranking? Does it sound like there is a significant difference in compression vs. before the problem occured? Usually when an engine jumps time it will tend to "free-wheel" as you crank it over.... Also look inside the distributor and check the pickup and stator for looseness, damage, clearance (air-gap) etc. Obviously check all electrical connections for loose wires, terminals, pin-fit, etc.

 

[RoadRunner1969]

@A31PKG:
I know online diagnoses are very difficult but it´s a good way to share experiences ! Every posting helps to think about different things and at the end hopefully it leads to solve the problem !

Prior to shut off, the engine was smoking and loading up but it was very cold that morning and the rpm was near 1700. But this is everytime when the car was parked a few weeks and the weather is cold.

The engine sound compression-wise when cranking was as always.
To check the distributor is on my "to-do-list" !

If the result is the timing chain jump how can I fix that ??

Thanx for the help ! :cheers:

 

[A31PKG]

Yes I do enjoy sharing & reading - one of the reasons I decided to frequent this fine forum!

At any rate, checking the credibilty of the timing chain & gears is simple. First remove all the plugs - makes it easier to turn the engine over. Remove the distributor cap. Rotate the engine in the direction of normal rotation (counter clockwise as viewed from the front) until number one cylinder is at TDC. Check the timing mark at the balancer and it should be zero. If it is, it's probably ok, but you still want to check the chain slack. Do this by slowly rotating the crankshaft in the opposite direction. Note the distance the balancer turns BEFORE the distributor rotor moves. This will give you the slack in the chain. Converting that distance to degrees requires a degree tape, but you can use your "eyechrometer"... if the TDC mark on the balancer moves more than, say, 6 degrees before the rotor moves, this would indicate too much slack in the chain... I believe 6 degrees is the industry standard if memory serves. Of course, you should also take into account the distributor shaft, as a worn tip could add to this measurement. As well as a worn intermediate shaft gear, or drive gear. Still, with 6 degrees of play, the engine should start. What we're really looking for here is the first part of my rant: Is #1 cylinder at TDC with the marks lined up? If it is, I would look elsewhere for a cause.

 

[ACME A12]

"eyechrometer"

I like that...

Mine seems to be flaking out as I get older; needs more and more light to get a good reading... :lmao: