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Making plans to return the car to PSMCD specs

mcmopar

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As I mentioned in some previous posts I'm currently in the planning stages to take my car down and set it up according to the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags specs. I spoke with Bob "Mr. Six Pack" Karakashian earlier this week because I wanted to get his input on what is needed and to see if his cam would work in my 383. He said a lot of 383 guys are running his cam with good results and he also gave me some tips on how to set it up so I'll be getting one of his cam/lifter kits sometime later on this year. We must have talked for over half an hour. He is a really cool guy and extremely helpful. He told me about some of the new rules going into effect this year; most notably the new rule which allows an increase in compression ratio of 1.5 points over stock and it does not matter how you achieve this; i.e. either through milling the heads, replacing the pistons or any combination thereof. This is great news since my current engine already has 0.030 over TRW L2293 domed forged aluminum pistons installed. All I'll have to do is disassemble the engine, check clearances, hone the cylinders if they check out, install new rings and bearings, cam and lifters and bolt on a set of cleaned up 906 heads (of which I already have a pair) and go to town. I'll be in the market for a 2.5" exhaust system but I already have the exhaust manifolds. I'll need to get a set of MP stamped rocker arms. One of the rules changes is that roller rockers are no longer allowed - stock rockers only. That's not a big deal since I get a rather nice discount through a local dodge dealer who sponsors our local Mopar club.
Bob also told me that the guys running the bias belted tires are hooking up better than the guys with radials but since I can't afford the $199 price tag per tire for the Firestone Wide Oval G70x14 bias ply tires I'm looking at a set of Firestone Firehawk 225/70R-14 radial tires. I have a quote of just over $363 out the door for a set of 4 tires which is more within my means. Once I have the AVS carb I'm all set and ready to go racing!
And when I'm just tooling around town I can put the Performer RPM and either the Holley 750 or my Carter Competition AFB 4 bbl carb that is presently on my Polara. Too bad I can't use that for the PSMCD setup (has to be the stock carb from 1969).

I've been bench racing with my buddy Jim and we have been kicking around some good combinations. It seems to me a 1970 383 road runner with an automatic trans would be the primo 383 combination due to the fact that;
1. The 383 uses a Holley carb which outflows the Carter AVS used in '69 by a good bit.
2. Maximum tire size would be an H60x15 bias ply (or radial equivalent) on the 15" Rallye wheel. It is true that the 440-6 bbl used a 15" wheel but the tire size was limited to F70x15 if I remember correctly (please chime in if I am wrong). Per the PSMCD rules I am allowed one tire size larger than stock so an F70 can be upgraded to a G70. Since the '70 model came with a an optional upgrade to G60x15 tires on the 15" Rallyes I could either stay with that size or go to the H60x15's. All 4 tires must be the same size unless the factory used staggered size tires like the AAR and T/A Challengers did.
3. Automatics are allowed a shift improver kit and a 1" smaller diameter converter. This would definitely allow for higher stall and better control than a 4 speed could provide. The 727 must be utilized - no trick racing transmissions with lightweight internals are allowed.

Another possibility that looks intriguing is a '72-74 road runner with a 400 engine (with the big 800 cfm ThermoQuad carb) and automatic trans. Since the compression can be raised by up to 1.5 points this would put the 400 at a 10.29:1 ratio which would be ideal. Granted, the intake, heads and exhaust manifolds aren't quite as good as the '68-'70 units but it would still be a very potent combination based on the carb, tire size and transmission. Any rear axle ratio you desire to run is allowed.
Of course, I could eventually just put in a 3 speed wiper motor conversion (mine is 2 speed) and drop a 440-6bbl in my car, too. The only down side to the '69 is the tire size. A '70 would be a far better setup just on tire size alone.
Clone cars are allowed but must be set up according to factory availability (no 440 Dusters, Demons, etc).
At any rate, since I am working again it affords me the opportunity to ponder my options once again. What I will eventually end up with is anyone's guess. Perhaps I will one day sell my bird and acquire the 1970 road runner I've always dreamed about. Who knows? We will just have to wait and see.
:beep:
 

69hemibeep

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John it sounds like a good plan. I will tell you that after I finished my car I had BFG radials on it prior the my bias ply tires, and I could stand on it in first and light the radials up not so with the red lines and the radials are wider :cents:
 

ACME A12

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mcmopar said:
A '70 would be a far better setup just on tire size alone.

John, last I checked they were running 10.50's on G70-15s with the F.A.S.T. A12s...so I think the point is moot... :lol:
If the '70 offered any real advantage I think Dudek and Cook would run them. As we all know they run '69s. :cents:

It would be nice if you could find some stamped steel rockers that were actually 1.5 ratio...the stockers come in as low as 1.42 per Bob K himself...

Good luck, and enjoy!

:jester:
 

mcmopar

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ACME A12 said:
mcmopar said:
A '70 would be a far better setup just on tire size alone.

John, last I checked they were running 10.50's on G70-15s with the F.A.S.T. A12s...so I think the point is moot... :lol:
If the '70 offered any real advantage I think Dudek and Cook would run them. As we all know they run '69s. :cents:

It would be nice if you could find some stamped steel rockers that were actually 1.5 ratio...the stockers come in as low as 1.42 per Bob K himself...

Good luck, and enjoy!

:jester:

Dudek has been into the high 9's but if you've seen them run on YouTube you'll see just how squirrely those cars get on those skinny tires. Its downright frightening...
The nice thing about Bob's cam is that he has enough lift on the lobe to make up for the lack of ratio in the rockers. Plus, the cam lobes are ground specifically to take advantage of the Chrysler lifter's larger diameter (known as "fast ramp technology"). Mac is using Bob's cam iirc and says its a good one.
I'd love to get a set of the Firestone bias ply tires but like I said - I'm not going to pay $199 per tire and then pay to have them shipped, mounted and balanced. A cool grand + for tires is not in the ol' budget now or anytime.
 

ACME A12

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mcmopar said:
The nice thing about Bob's cam is that he has enough lift on the lobe to make up for the lack of ratio in the rockers. Plus, the cam lobes are ground specifically to take advantage of the Chrysler lifter's larger diameter (known as "fast ramp technology"). Mac is using Bob's cam iirc and says its a good one.


Who do you think talked Mac into going with the Bob K cam??? :lol:
Well, I twisted his arm in that direction anyway. Mac is his own man... :yesnod:

I have one too. But I will use 1.6 roller rockers. Bambi will be "stock appearing"... Be a damned shame not to take advantage of all of that metal grinding that Jim did on those old 906's.... :D

:jester:
 

mcmopar

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Bambi's gonna be Bambilicious! One word of advice - you may need to modify the internal baffles in the valve covers because of the 1.6 roller rockers. My rockers were hitting the baffles and when I tried to dent them I distorted the valve covers. You may want to drill some holes or something, but then you are defeating the purpose of the baffles. Try to find some rockers that won't hit.
I'll hang onto all the parts that are coming off and maybe use some of them for street use and then swap out the relevant pieces when it comes time to run. Shouldn't be too much of a hassle since I probably won't get to but one race a year, if that. The closest race is in Atlanta and Bob wasn't sure they were going to continue having that event. Still, it would be great fun to turn 13's with a "Pure Stock" 383 road runner! :thumbsup:
 

moparchris

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I have had a strong urge to go stock eliminator racing. I even had a verbal agreement to drive a F/SA Dart Sport at one time, but the car had too many issues and we couldn't get the car sorted out since I didn't 10K to spend to make it right. The guy who owned the car had the secrets to make BIG power and the car went mid tens even though the record at the time was low 11s. He had 2 wooden crates in his shop and one was full of TQs and the other had rockers. He built a rocker dyno to test the ratio and found most weren't 1.5 ratio and most of them were 1.42 and he would go through and find the 1.5s and use them the others went in the crate. Same with the TQs if they even worked without puking fuel all over he would use them, the others went in the crate.
 

mcmopar

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My bud Jim races in NHRA Stock Eliminator with his '70 Challenger but he's kind of put off by it at the moment. NHRA is always screwing around with the rules and giving breaks to the Blue Oval and Bowtie boys which the Mopar guys don't get. And when they do get a nugget from NHRA the other guys get ther panties in a bunch and cry like little girls with skinned knees. Seems like the Pure Stock Drags are a fun way to enjoy one's car without all the drama involved with NHRA.
 

mac

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ACME A12 said:
mcmopar said:
The nice thing about Bob's cam is that he has enough lift on the lobe to make up for the lack of ratio in the rockers. Plus, the cam lobes are ground specifically to take advantage of the Chrysler lifter's larger diameter (known as "fast ramp technology"). Mac is using Bob's cam iirc and says its a good one.


Who do you think talked Mac into going with the Bob K cam??? :lol:
Well, I twisted his arm in that direction anyway. Mac is his own man... :yesnod:

I have one too. But I will use 1.6 roller rockers. Bambi will be "stock appearing"... Be a damned shame not to take advantage of all of that metal grinding that Jim did on those old 906's.... :D

:jester:


put that cam in last season. next year is a set of stealth heads. using them to get the compression up along with the cylinder pressures, and also a pertronix ignition. always messing with something. oh yeah almost forgot, a electronic voltage reg that looks like an old point one.
 

mcmopar

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Well, there has been a change in plans on the cam. My bud Jim got me an Elgin cam a little while ago that specs out at 224/234 degrees @ .050 with valve lifts of .466" intake and .488" exhaust with 1.5 rockers. Since the Mopar stock stamped steel rockers are actually less than 1.5 ratio (about 1.42 to 1.45 according to Bob K) the actual lift on the valve will be .440" intake and .462" exhaust which should put me just a bit low on the intake and just a smidge high on the exhaust according to the PSMCD rules. The only concern I have is the rules specify that the engine pull 16" of vacuum at 1200 rpm. Since this cam has a 109 degree intake lobe c/l and 119 exhaust lobe c/l it comes out to approx. a 114 degree c/l ([109+119]/2) which should pull the needed vacuum. One can only hope. Elgin's catalog does not specify that this cam is low on vacuum so perhaps it will work out ok. Since $$ are tight and this cam is already in hand it just makes sense to give it a try and if it does not meet the requirements I can snag one of Bob K's cams a little later on.
Of course, a hone job on the cylinder walls and a fresh set of rings will also greatly help with cylinder sealing and hopefully a good vacuum reading.
 

moparchris

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mcmopar said:
Well, there has been a change in plans on the cam. My bud Jim got me an Elgin cam a little while ago that specs out at 224/234 degrees @ .050 with valve lifts of .466" intake and .488" exhaust with 1.5 rockers. Since the Mopar stock stamped steel rockers are actually less than 1.5 ratio (about 1.42 to 1.45 according to Bob K) the actual lift on the valve will be .440" intake and .462" exhaust which should put me just a bit low on the intake and just a smidge high on the exhaust according to the PSMCD rules. The only concern I have is the rules specify that the engine pull 16" of vacuum at 1200 rpm. Since this cam has a 109 degree intake lobe c/l and 119 exhaust lobe c/l it comes out to approx. a 114 degree c/l ([109+119]/2) which should pull the needed vacuum. One can only hope. Elgin's catalog does not specify that this cam is low on vacuum so perhaps it will work out ok. Since $$ are tight and this cam is already in hand it just makes sense to give it a try and if it does not meet the requirements I can snag one of Bob K's cams a little later on.
Of course, a hone job on the cylinder walls and a fresh set of rings will also greatly help with cylinder sealing and hopefully a good vacuum reading.

With that duration you should have no problem with pulling vacuum especially at 1200 rpm unless it has a lot of overlap. What is the LSA on that cam? That would tell a lot about its overlap and idle characteristics. Another thing to remember, when you use the stock Mopar stamped steel rockers your going to get a little bit of deflection with the load created by the valve spring. So you will see even less lift at the valve spring retainer when they check it at tech. Im excited for you this sounds like fun!
 

mcmopar

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Hey Chris, the cam is rated at 71 degrees of overlap which has me concerned a little bit. The specs are as follows:
Cam lift: intake .311 | exhaust .325
Valve lift: intake .466 | exhaust .488 (note: this is with 1.5 true ratio rockers)
Lobe Centers: intake 109 deg. | exhaust 119 eg.
SAE Duration: intake 298 deg. | exhaust 303 deg.
.050 Duration: intake 224 deg. | exhaust 234 deg.
SAE Timing: BTC 35 | ABC 83 | BBC 87 | ATC 36
.050 Timing: BTC 3 | ABC 41 | BBC 56 | ATC -2
Bob K also recommends running .010" spacers under the rocker shafts for lifter preload relief.
Below is the diagram Elgin provides in their catalog for reference in installing a cam.
 

moparchris

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71 degrees isn't bad. It should idle pretty well with that but did Elgin supply you with a Lobe Seperation Angle?
 

mcmopar

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Lobe separation should be 114 degrees but I have a call in to Elgin to double check on that. If I am not mistaken the lobe centers can be used to calc separation: 109+119/2 = 114. Once I get confirmation from Elgin I'll let you know. :thumbsup:
EDIT: Yup. Elgin called and verified that the LSA is 114 degrees. I told him I was concerned about the amount of vacuum and he assured me that this cam would be fine. He said that vacuum isn't terribly degraded until 112 LSA is utilized, then it goes down from there. So I am good to go with this cam for now and I can upgrade to Bob K's cam a bit later on if I get the urge. Sweet! This saves me a good penny!
 

moparchris

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Yes, with 114 LSA it will idle great! The only draw back is that it will spread out the torque curve, but that will actually work to your advantage since you have restraints on your converter. I think it will work killer. :cheers:
 

mcmopar

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Actually I'm running a 4-speed with a 3.55 gear ratio but I'm looking to grab a 3.91 Sure Grip chunk sometime in the future. I've got lots of plans but no $$$ right now. Oh well, it keeps me busy just thinking of all the things that need to be done. Hopefully I can accomplish them all. The only downside to all this is that the meets are all up in the northest. The closest one will be at Cecil County Dragway in Maryland! I checked on Google Earth and the good news is it's a straight shot up I-95. The bad news is it is about 940 miles from my place! They won't get any closer until 2013 when they are planning to be in Bristol, TN. So I probably won't get the chance to go up anytime soon due to $$$ constraints. We'll see. I'd love to go up to see the cars run but will just have to be satisfied with YouTube videos for now.
 

69hemibeep

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This should prove to be interesting, I always liked class racing vs bracket. Sounds like fun John
 

ACME A12

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John, just curious as to what happened to:

"That's why I no longer take my car to the track. I'm not making anywhere near those power levels but I've already had my one brush with disaster and have no wish to repeat that situation. Since my insurance says I have no coverage if I take the car onto the strip it just makes it all the easier to justify staying away."

Excerpted from a post that you made about a year ago... Did you get a new insurance company or are you just saying "screw it"? I don't think this has been covered, but if so please forgive the redundant query...
 

mcmopar

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Good question Ray. I have not addressed that lately. I figure that by going back to Pure Stock configuration the stress on the car will be a lot less since I won't be making near the power I am now and I'll be running on skinny street tires (G70x14/15 or radial equivalent depending on how much gear I want to put in it- any gear ratio is acceptable). And since I only plan on running one - maybe two - races per year it won't be too risky, especially since I plan on going over the car with a fine-tooth comb. I'll be having new rear end bearings installed in a week or two (the green bearings in there now are making a lot of noise) and then Jim and I plan on taking the engine out, giving it a thorough cleaning and inspection, a hone job, new rings, rod, main and cam bearings and a full blueprint on the bottom end. We'll also check the balancing job that was done on the motor when it was built some years ago. I will also install a new oil pump and 6-7 qt. capacity oil pan along with the new cam, lifters and springs. Jim will set up the valves and perform a race prep 3 angle valve job. No porting is allowed but we'll clean up any casting flash as necessary. When it goes back in I'll install new belts and hoses and check all the flexible brake lines and replace as needed. After all - they are now 8 years old. Eventually I want to get a new set of Strange axles as well but that is a ways down the road. The way I figure it - if I take the time and set it up right the risk of failure will be low. I used to beat the crap out of my first road runner and it never once failed me in stock trim. Hopefully I can come up with the money for all this. the good news is that I'm really busy right now with my business and the part-time job is working out ok. I could use some more hours but I'm not complaining. So, yeah, my attitude is one or two race events at this power level isn't too much to be worried about.
The way the PSMCD events are structured is that you make a few passes to establish your et and then you are paired with a car that is running et's similar to yours. You and your opponent then run a best 2 out of 3 match to see who wins. That's all there is to it. Some events are one day in length and some are 2 days with separate races each day.
You can check them out here:
http://supercarraces.com/phpBB3/index.php
and also look on YouTube for Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags videos. The F.A.S.T. guys also run at these events too.
 
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