No Pedal

[RR383]

That's right no pedal after attempting to bleed the brakes. This RR came with drums all around. I bought it knowing it had brake issues.
Bench bleed and installed a reman MC no issues. Installed on the car earlier today and commenced the std bleeding regimen Rt. rear...Lt. rear...Rt. front...Lt. front. Nothing fancy mason jar half full of clean new Dot 3 brake fluid with one end of vinyl hose attached to bleeder screw and other immersed below fluid level. With wife in control central pumping pedal and I was under the car...reddish brown colored fluid leaving each bleeder screw. Never got good results from the rear drums...in other words while stroking the pedal I didn't get positive flow out through the hose. Note...I attempted to kept the MC fluid level UP....but at times I failed to stop the pedal action in time.
I was able to get positive fluid flow through the fronts...but not in the rears. Still NO PEDAL!:huh:

 

[quikbird]

Proportion ing valve working? If it is closed will be no flow to the rear brakes

 

[Basketcase]

possibly a collapsed hose on the rear end?

 

[RR383]

Proportion ing valve working? If it is closed will be no flow to the rear brakes

Where under the car is the valve located and by what means do I test for function?

 

[RR383]

possibly a collapsed hose on the rear end?

Hard lines are on the rear.

 

[abodybill]

Hard lines are on the rear.

Yes this is true but,all 3 hard lines tie into the brass block on the axle housing and it has a rubber hose from the front hard line and goes off to the left/right hard line.

 

[RR383]

Yes this is true but,all 3 hard lines tie into the brass block on the axle housing and it has a rubber hose from the front hard line and goes off to the left/right hard line.

Well, alright I stand corrected...I'll investigate in the morning. My hydraulic dinner isn't setting well on my stomach. To much thinking or was that to much drinking???

 

[Ranger]

Boy do I feel your pain. Same set up. When I got the car in Dec 2014 I replaced all the wheel cylinders and the MC. I never had a problem getting fluid out of any wheel cylinder, but had a soft pedal. Must have bled it half a dozen times before I got it hard (I know I'll pay for that comment). I still feel the pedal could be a tad higher and on occasion, it pulls to the right. I'll adjust them again as soon as the weather warms up. Pedal height I think is something I just have to get used to. So long as it stays off the floor and is hard, I'm OK with it. The only advice I can give you is bleed, bleed and bleed again, but check that MC often. Bleed it down and you're back to square one.

 

[quikbird]

Valve is on the drivers side frame rail down low

 

[Roadcuda]

Are the lines to the back of the car old, or new. I had a pedal issue with a '64 Barracuda I had and tried bleeding the lines and couldn't get any fluid to the rear, even when literally standing on the pedal. The fluid was so old in the lines that it blocked them up. I put all new lines in, both hard and rubber as well as new wheel cylinders to fix the problem.

 

[Big John]

The "valve" talked about here isn't really a proportioning valve. It's a distribution block with a hydraulic switch that turns a light on if there is no pressure in the front or rear systems. It will have no effect on bleeding the brakes. They do have a proportioning valve in disc brake cars, but that's another subject.

IMHO, you might have emptied the master a little too much. You may have to bleed the master at the lines.

I also suggest buying one of these: http://www.harborfreight.com/mityvac-vacuum-pump-39522.html

It works sooooo much better than having the wife pump the brakes... Believe me.... Just hook the hose to the bleeder and pump a vacuum. Loosen the bleeder and give it a couple pumps. Tighten the bleeder, lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

There's a cheaper version available too, but I like that one.

 

[Ranger]

The "valve" talked about here isn't really a proportioning valve. It's a distribution block with a hydraulic switch that turns a light on if there is no pressure in the front or rear systems. It will have no effect on bleeding the brakes.

:yeathat:

The more I think about this, the more I lean towards the rear brake hose at the body to rear end transition. That hose may be collapsed internally acting like a check valve if you are getting little to no fluid out of the rear bleeders.

 

[Big John]

:yeathat:

The more I think about this, the more I lean towards the rear brake hose at the body to rear end transition. That hose may be collapsed internally acting like a check valve if you are getting little to no fluid out of the rear bleeders.

You'd get a hard pedal if that was the case.

Unless there's something that we don't know about, I'm assuming that the brake system was all working correctly before the master cylinder failure.

 

[RR383]

Please explain "bleeding the master at the lines". To reiterate...its a Cardone reconditioned MC from NAPA...I bench bleed IAW their instructions which was a little different than I remember...they supplied plastic plugs for both ports...fill cylinder and gently plunge until you have resistance...check. Truth be known I did pull the small reservoir down more than once. OOOOps!

So at this stage leave the distribution block alone...CORRECT?

One last thing I removed all but the left front drum off its (STUCK) I mean stuck. All other components look real good, shoes, lining, cylinders (no leaks) under rubber boots, springs ,etc. What do you suggest to get that stubborn drum off...rotates freely?????

 

[Big John]

Stubborn drum first.... You are taking the wheel bearing nut off... Correct?? The hub assembly comes off with the drum.

Usually, with the nut off and the outer bearing out, you can wiggle the front drum off. There's a ridge from drum wear that might make this difficult. You may have to back the brake adjustment off to retract the shoes enough.

Bench bleed... There is usually plastic tubing gizmos that screw into the ports and the tubes go back into the reservoir. Did you have these?

By bleeding the lines at the master, you pretty much do everything as if you are bleeding the brakes. You crack the line nuts at the master and let the air out. Wrap a rag around the lines so the brake fluid doesn't squirt out and ruin the paint.

Leave the front distribution block alone.

 

[RR383]

No sir...the front drums are independent of the spindle/studs and bearings assy. It may require a puller...careful blows with a bronze dead blow hammer and penetrant haven't convinced it.

There were no hoses...again instructions were to plugs both outlets, fill and manually actuate the plunger until it becomes very firm. That was there version of bench bleeding.

So my only option at this juncture is to crack each line and stroke the pedal??? How do I know when enough is enough??

 

[RR383]

Just checked the Cardone website to verify their bench bleed procedures. Again they claim using solid plugs...filling both chambers...and using short slow strokes not to exceed 3/4" plunger depth stroke until a firmness is felt followed by no more stroke. You then have bench bled their MC.

 

[Ranger]

This is the bench bleeder kit Big John is talking about.


But like he said, you CAN do it without it by simply cracking the two brake pipes at the MC and letting the air out just like using the bleeder valves on the wheel cylinders.

 

[Big John]

No sir...the front drums are independent of the spindle/studs and bearings assy. It may require a puller...careful blows with a bronze dead blow hammer and penetrant haven't convinced it.

DO NOT REMOVE THE BRAKE DRUM THAT WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I CAN NOT EMPHASIZE THAT MORE!!!!!

The drum is a press fit to the hub. If you can get the drum by just pulling on it, you have a problem.

Factory Service Manual, Section 5, page 5. "Removing Front Brake Drums" See step 4.

 

[Ranger]

Originally Posted by Ranger

The more I think about this, the more I lean towards the rear brake hose at the body to rear end transition. That hose may be collapsed internally acting like a check valve if you are getting little to no fluid out of the rear bleeders.

You'd get a hard pedal if that was the case.


Unless there's something that we don't know about, I'm assuming that the brake system was all working correctly before the master cylinder failure.

:huh: Yeah I guess that's right, UNLESS it was not closed off completely and fluid slowly passes by under brake pressure. Then you'd have a slowly sinking pedal, would you not?